Apart from the epidimiological analysis we are commonly exposed to by mass media, there are political aspects of corona that compliment the picture that may be within uncharted area for many perspectives.
Looking at the cold numbers and statistics, especially for China and Italy, one may draw the wrong conclusions on what the deduced statistics are. Details are not that important, but let's say if one in 15000 people has gotten sick by this since the outbreak, it appears as highly unlikely that you would meet such a person in real life. Among those, in China, the vast majority has been cured, and may not even be carriers of it, so the effective number may be up to 1 in 60ooo. This is a huge stadium full of people and only one has the virus, at least before the game is on half time break.
In Pergamo Italy today, not a huge city, they 10pages of funeral announcements and funeral homes have been denying service. Italy is about reaching its critical ability to treat the sick, as intensive care units for such diseases are all full. In epidimiology this is the critical point and in this case the 1% mortality may jump to 5 or 10%.

How does the picture in Italy, China, Finland, or the US change what the numbers mean. The US has relatively few reported cases, but the death number is about 5 times higher than that of Germany which is reporting 50% more cases than the entire US. Is it population density? Then why are so many are dying in one of the relatively healthiest states in the US (Washington)? My explanation is that the US government, apart of some military clinics and few left over hospitals, has no direct mechanism to deal with any health issue. The population relies in private "service" provision. They are not going to back out of their right to profit when an opportunity arises. Does the state have the capacity to order and pay? It doesn't appear that way yet. So unless someone gets really sick in the US, chances are they will not seek "and pay" to be tested. Even a common antibiotic in the US, by the time a patient pays for a visit and a prescription and purchases the "remedy", the cost is about 20-30 times more than the average European resident would pay.

In countries where drastic austerity measures had to be taken to keep the "economy" (meaning liquidity of the banking system) afloat, hospitals and clinics of the public health system were shut down, personnel fired, and many non-essential services pushed to the private sector (like diagnostic testing). The systems were streamlined to basically meet needs on a normal basis, personnel is stressed to the maximum (literally they have been putting their hands up, saying we are only paid to save so many lives, we are not enough to save more). So this importance on banks surviving outweighing people surviving, is something neoliberalism has long been criticized for. Many have become advocates of such policy and have internalized the propaganda as ideology.

Unfortunately this is a historic moment where some values and principles of what makes neoliberalism tolerated is going through a test. A stress test for neoliberalism. I hope this epidemic somehow magically evaporates, but I have a suspicion that it will not. In places where politics of economic matters are defended against the politics of life matters, this may evolve into a war like disaster. Whether stock markets collapse, and currencies being under pressure, oil dropping to a 1/4 price of what it was 10 years ago, may not be a real consequence unless you have many investments, currency, etc. The ratio of work to food and shelter will remain despite of what computers say, and that is what matters to most of us.

The question is whether people will be able to deduce some fault in past politics to what is happening, or will they allow the convenient excuse of a "naturally occurring" event. And what if people did make the connection, are there really any choices for the future? I read airports in the US are "congested" due to screening. It appears as people are being condemned because they "must fly". Again, why so main deaths for such low confirmed number of cases? Why is the ratio in the US so different than the rest of the countries? Are true epidemiologists not allowed to speak up on what is going on?

If current politics and economics are killing us, maybe it is time to die changing politics and economics. I think the ecosystem this time has sent a clear message, shape up or ship out! If humans can't do it, nature will clean up the mess.
It's good time to change habits... Now here in Poland everybody is forced to stay in their homes, because that's what the government tells them on media... Shops are shut... They even closed swimming pool... No cinemas, no live shows, no libraries and schools are shut too...
So now there are less cars, less people everywhere, air is much better (at least temporarily), so it's better to go for walks, breathe some fresh air, eat fruits and vitamins just to have more resistance... Spending time at homes staring on display is not good... Well it is, but not now...

There might be worse or more viruses in the future... Spending time in doors like everybody does while eating food and watching tv/playing games is doom... It's good time to strenghten body, spirit and mind cuz there will be worse cases in the future...
First cataclism in australia forests burning, now virus... ;D...
Maybe there will be some massive disease some day and billions of people will die haha... Now government and sitting at homes is not gonna protect you against virus... People will have no idea how to move without cars or get food when all they do for entire life is staying in homes, go to car park on supermarket and buy junk food full of chemicals hahah...
Personally it is crazy that everything is shut, but it's a good thing everybody is panicking. Yeah panic you fools

The downside of that is just internet is getting even worse, it's so boring... Everybody talking about money jobs virus women sex relationships games... Why do i even go on internet???

After all i kind of fancy going back to Devuan and stay on the stable, offline path... I have wanted that for about few months now, is to change the way i live and start having offline life... Net addiction is real here... Everybody should be aware of the fact that the way most people live and what they say on tv is simply lot of bollocks...
If there werent tv or internet, no media there wouldnt be a virus in people brains... Everybody would be normal.
No cars no airplanes, virus wouldnt spread so quickly... This is all the effect of being against nature...
Good for those who go to forests, parks, spend time with animals and listen to birds singing... And at night there is moon and beautiful sky full of stars... :-). It's good that everybody is at their homes now because there is less nature being destroyed...

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  • Post #3
Here in Kraków, the air has never been so clean. The road usually with heavy traffic and noisy is pretty calm now with only buses. I can finally open my window and ventilate my room. Yesterday I went out to buy vegetables in the market place. It's pretty calm, the city is almost empty of people and there are very very few tourists. When you know the ravages that excessive tourism does, it's rather a good thing I could say.
Less waste, less pollution, less noise, it's a back in time in the 80's before capitalism began its devastation in this magnificent country.
I had a hope that the reconstruction of the country would be done on something new, something different for the benefit of all. I was wrong and I understood that majority of people did not care about their country, but rather by the number of cars they could buy, the last TV and all the other futile things. People after all the fight for their freedom, by no reason left the management of their country in the hands of people who don't give a damn about the country but also now have the right to tell people 'kiss my ass stupid slave'.
Locate the differences of what Makron is doing with what Stalin would have done?
Suddenly, decades of vicious neoliberalism is collapsing and those that do implement measures are turning into a "socialist" (as in Sweden not as in N.Korea) government in 24hr. Those that don't, like the UK experimenting with an epidimiological suicide, are defending the "economy" against defending lives.

The huge contradictions will need time to be consumed and digested, one thing I think is for sure is that this perceived "normalcy" in now unattainable. I don't think we can return in the 80s Poland or 70s Italy either. Beware of a yet new world order. The rhetoric of decades of world leaders has just hit an iceberg. Many will survive the health epidemic, the economic and political epidemic has yet to appear.

In many peripheral economies, to force them to adopt to vicious neoliberalism they used excuses to pressure streamlining essential social services to marginal levels of physical and political survival. Hospitals and clinics were shut down, medical personnel reduced, schools were cramped up, health benefits reduced, etc.. etc. Now the shortcomings of this austerity is measured by coffins. In the case of Italy, what I am saying is more obvious than anywhere else.

Also the results of the epidimiologic study will not be released very soon, I am sure they will clarify the weakness of urbanization globally. There are nearly 4bil living in 5% of the planet and 3-3.5bil living in the remaining 95%. The "cost" of urban living just went up. There has to be a political explanation for this suicidal tendency of humanity, and homicidal for the remaining species.

I have to go take my medication now, caffeine, nicotine, and dried forest mushrooms. See you later.
@ jean-michel
are you staying on holiday in Cracow?? Or you say you're polish ;o??

@ fungilife
don't you think that going on web to read everybody talking about some crazy virus that within 3 months became world famous superstar that everybody heard about... Wow, covid-19!!! It's like new Jesus Christ or Adolf Hitler!!! Who can be bigger super star of 2020 than corona virus??
CORONA VIRUS PERSON OF THE YEAR 2020 BY TIMES MAGAZINE :D :D :D
If I wanted to joke around about this I would write my thoughts on social media, where everything is reduced to a joke and who is a more aggressive smart ass.
This guy, not too far away from where I am, lived alone away from home, his mother became ill and was taken to a hospital where she was tested and was positive. She seemed to be needing more care than this rural island clinic could provide, meanwhile her son was tested and he is positive without symptoms, and is quarantined at home, while his mom is being transferred here and has nobody around to worry about her. So they may be both sick from the same thing, they haven't seen each other for months, they are now within walking distance away, and they may never see each other. Real life stories are not as funny as statistics and dots on a map. A late study presented to the US/UK non-believers clowns-leaders yesterday is saying that if no measures are taken the US can lose 1.1mil population and the UK about 1/4mil before the epidemic subsides. And it can take up to 18months to confidently say it is over. So this star is not just a flu.

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  • Post #7
Hi,

@ Fungalnet
I don't think we can return in the 80s Poland or 70s Italy either.
And I don't want to return in the 80s Poland. It was a really hard time. Food rationing, long queue for basic necessities (bread, butter, milk, ...) which often ended with a return at home with empty hands. However I remember a relaxing and clean city, lots of greenery, birds songs, pleasant parfum and in some streets cooking smells.
Today concrete has replaced these square meters of greenery, the smell of diesel has replaced cooking parfum, engine noise has replaced birds song, and partly because of tourism the city is getting increasingly dirty. Capitalism is beautiful, isn't it!
This system is so above ground, that a simple virus is capable of putting things back in their right place. I hope that what happens now will wake up a number of people.


@ Mounerje
Wow, covid-19!!! It's like new ...
Please, don't do that. Think about what you wrote.



As usual, I want to be honest with you. Fungalnet is already aware of my point of view on delicate subjects. I would prefer that we stick to themes that are either related to IT or that bring something pleasant for all of us. I do not forbid a discussion on more sensitive subjects, but on condition of building an intelligent discussion if you have something to say.

Let's be honest with ourselves, we don't really know the cause and consequences of everything that is going on right now. Some people bring elements that are worth analyzing the rest is monetized shit. I would prefer that we focus here on the relevant analyzes.

Thx
Yeah, let's say you're right... But past few weeks everybody and everywhere is all about virus... This is the truth: You're worried about people and virus, but this thing appeared in Wuhan China for first time, is that right... And it was apparently market of wild animals stock... Humans kill billions of animals every year... Everybody is worried about themselves of course... But imagine how much negative impact almost every human has on this planet... It is very easy to calculate... Not just cars but everybody is buying food in supermarkets and generate craploads of waste which is cardboard, plastic... Eat lots of meat that comes from animals that suffer very badly... Everybody is wasting electricity for some useless dumb things like watching tv or playing online games on steam. Billions of 'live stock' dying every year... And also because humans defosterate, it isn't just animals but tribes, people r killing their homes, put toxic waste into clean rivers... It's all thanks to people. But it's not on media, now some virus is killing some people, now this is the topic number one. For years i been watching was really happening but nobody really cared... I have spent some time with animals past 2 years and all i can say they're better than people. If there is some virus that will wipe out whole humanity that is really good news. It's not like i am saying planet is overpopulated, like most of ppl say because there is enough space for all of us but you know... I go for a walk in the weekday... I see dead cats or birds on the pavements, probably hit by cars... Rivers almost disappeared, water evaporates... Now i go on the main street i see massive lorries going with pigs/turkey every 20 minutes... Trucks with cut trees everyday dozens of them... I realised that destruction is happening and i have been watching that for several years now... Now i wake up next day and see this mess is happening and happening over and over... Destruction everyday... Nobody cares and thnks about that because they still are able to drive their cars to job go buy food in supermarkets and make money... So you see what people do and have done for past let's say 20 years is evil and now there is some virus coming for us... Bad things that everybody does r turning against us now.
How many animals have been burnt to death in Australia last year?? :-( And what they have done??? Animals are innocent beings and suffer + die very badly, while humans destroy the environment all the time n they're alive... Virus is good!!

Want to live on the planet where no corona virus exists??? Turn your television OFF, stop reading media and don't go on internet...
Past 2 weeks every website there r people talking about some covid-19 it's slightly annoying... For some reason this is the most important topic now is to blablablabla about some virus LMAO this is really tiring... All evil things people have done r now turning against us... This is normal thing and it's good news... Nature is coming for everyone of us and it's probably gonna have revenge on everybody... :D. It's really good news lmao... Finally this shit is happening. Seeing live stock in lorries, deforestation etc. is very depressing...

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  • Post #9
If there is some virus that will wipe out whole humanity that is really good news.
You say this because you seem to have no solution to all of the problems on the earth. Free yourself from all of this.

Humans don't kill biliions of animals. MULTINATIONAL for their interests kill billions of animals
Humans don't hurt animal for food. MULTINATIONAL for their interests hurt animals for food.
Humans don't generate craploads of waste. MULTINATIONAL for their interests generate craploads of waste with unnecessary packaging.
Human don't send toxic in rivers. MULTINATIONAL for their interests send toxic in rivers.
Humans don't drain rivers. MULTINATIONAL for their interests drain rivers.

These people working for MULTINATIONAL know how to turn things that will make you the only one responsible for their shit. While my neighbor watches over the sorting of my trash, the real guilty the MULTINATIONAL has the approval of our government to continue their crappy business.

I release you from what you are not guilty of and what you do not have to suffer morally. You are free now and humans and you will live long enough to send and see all these criminals and their minions in jail for eternity.

This is a very interesting conference but in French Totalitarisme pervers d'une multinationale au pouvoir
@ mounerje Turn your television OFF, stop reading media and don't go on internet...
Yeah right 'multinational' forces people to eat meat, drive their cars, buy food in lidl

@ fungilife
There may be thousands victims alrrady, but the virus has already infected minds of millions of people. Thanks to bollocks like media.
I wondered if this forum would be free of this corona virus bullshit but not really. So the truth is that i love corona virus, i am his fan. 4 months ago he was nobody now he is world famous super star. Instagramers should feel jelaous.
People eat meat today not because they hunt and kill, nor because they raise animals to be slaughtered in farms. People buy meet because multinationals thrive and profit from its mass production, with questionable practices, transport and distribute, process all kinds of meet products. This is why in a century there are 800 more cows/cattle on earth than used to be (and this may be an old figure I remember from school time), it may be even larger now.

If you keep blaming people for what the ruling elite is cornering them to do you will always draw the wrong conclusions and turn against the victim, instead of the victimizer.
Yes, but everybody can make choices and choose to not polute the planet and live the most sustainable way they can.
For example one may choose to not buy products from companies owned by billionairies.
But everybody use google search engine, buy stuff from amazon... Without customers there would no be elites.
Social behavior is modified by social organization. What you are complaining about is social organization, not individual behavior.
When someone is hungry, is living in real substandard conditions, has kids to feed, and the only job available is 25km away and there is no bus/metro they will use a motorvehicle, if they have access to it. It is not a choice among the many means, it is forced due to lack of options. I think every rational being would rather work at the floor below their apartment, or next door, but they can't.

If fresh organic vegetables for a whole family cost 12euro a day, but the other stuff (non-organic, non-bio, mass industrially produced) cost 7euro they will buy them. If cheap hotdogs are on sale for 3 they will blend well with less vegetables. Cheap industrial sliced bread is cheaper than fresh bakery bread, and 1/3 the price of organic bio handmade natural local yeist bread. A family of 5 living on a tight budget will choose cheap sliced bread, and hotdogs.
95% of the stuff in the grocery store are sold by multibillion multinationals. Many things are the same across the clobe, very few locally produced stuff make it to a large chain grocery store. The minor local vegie/fruit market is likely more expensive in the few stuff they sell. Manufactured hard goods are all made by multinationals across the globe. Between India, China, Malaysia, Indonesia, Taiwan, 99% of electrical mechanical products sold worldwide are made there, but marketed by a handful of N.American and W.European industrial firms.

The rich have many choices, of what to consume and to choose a lifestyle, the poor are forced to live a certain way they can't escape. If they had made the mistake to have kids they even have less choices.
Hipsters choose the most radically different than norms lifestyle and that lifestyle defines them. They are the lifestyle they choose.

You want the primary force of social organization to remain as it is, but you want individual behavior to change and deviate the prescription. It is not going to happen, and those that practice and do this alternative lifestyle are so much part of the problem as anyone else. Now choosing to organize and change the overall social organization is a lifestyle in itself. When there are state agencies after your every move so you can not possibly affect anything ... that is a lifestyle. The more you try to escape the more you separate from society, the less influence you have, the less likely you will be effective. The more you try to be like everyone else the more vulnerable you become so they can stop you otherwise.
What you saying is quite dumb... Everybody has a responsibility for goodness of our planet to eat food that has minimum negative impact on environment... That makes people who buy food in supermarkets super evil... Let's say enough is to drink water from plastic bottles... Something that is given for us by our planet is being sold by some businessmen in plastic bottles and it costs a lot while in fact most of it is just tap water
Now imagine how many fish and animals that live in a sea had died painful dead because of the plastic bottles pollution, thanks to all who decide to spend their hard earned money for water in plastic bottles...
Or europeans that buy stuff like coconut oil or bananas...

Buying local food is much cheaper than going to super market... How come that most of 'poor' people go buy food in lidl, that is 'cheap' and 'tasty' and owner of lidl is one of the richest germans, 25 billions dollars??
It's all thanks to people, they prefer convenience given to them by those multinationals you mention and these multinationals have only profits in mind... Canned tuna goes from one end of the planet to another and is sold for 1 dollar for a can, whereas it has done about 15000 km just so average joe can eat his tuna...
In fact food is getting worse and worse... Meat is disgusting... I used to consume it a lot but now it makes me vomit. Now combine eating meat with smoking tobacco or sitting 24/7 on your ass watching tv you gonna die painful death.

And this organic bio stuff that they sell in supermarkets is not any different than the non organic except that it has label BIO or ORGANIC. One man back in a day when i was in england, he worked on some tomatoes farm, and he told me that organic tomatoes are those that during sorting look bigger than the other ones that look normal so they put ORGANIC label on it because it's bigger...
Everybody who spends their money in supermarkets is superdumb... And buy bio vegan products are morons too... Small can of veggie pate is like 2 dollars here in Poland... Let's say 100g... For 4 dollars i can make by myself 1kg of veggie pate...
Richest people and elite already know that most of people on this planet are so fucking dumb and idiots so they want to finish everybody so they can have whole planet for themselves

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  • Post #16
What is happening now with Covid-19 could be beneficial for the future of humanity.
With enough perspective on current events we realize how much this system built hands by hands by our elites and multinationals is a big flop, a fiasco but also seriously sick.
As soon as this hysteria is over and I hope that containment was not the only moment of people unity in the world, time will come for all of these criminals, mountebanks, charlatans to be judge by an impartial court representing the people and sent in jail.

A bunch of buffoons who dare to talk to us about travel to Mars, lol.

Liber8
You are being optimistic that "humanity" will learn out of the experience. No matter what humanity may independently realize from the experience, media will direct humanity to understand that "everything else" is OK, just measures against this incident are necessary. Like the ability to have intensive care units reproducible easily in secondary locations. If you look at the map now, it is clear, this virus is hitting the most industrialized centers of the earth.

This is like agriculture, they proceed in industrial monoculture for thousands of square kilometers, then locust strikes and the remedy is some chemical that kills locust. Locust in such devastating phenomena of crop wipe out never existed in natural forest.

I am afraid the reaction for future pandemics will be some commercial patch ( profitable patch) to fix the consequence, the effect, not the source of the problem. There were deaths and hospitals getting crowded in Italy and factories kept running at full capacity. The problem is not lack of ICU but that every worker's home in those industrialized cohabitation buildings there is at least one active case of a carrier. He/she gets out every day and takes the trash out to corner around his building, then climbs the same stairway with 100 more people to lock himself in.
17 days later
Okay, it seems like stuff is serious and i experienced it myself

On friday i was going to go for a long walk, about 30 kilometers... 60% was on outskirts...
I have met police by massive lake in the forest, they said hello and one told me that if i ever see you again you gonna get huge fine/have court case... They asked me if i dont watch tv and dont know that it is forbidden to 'walk without any reason' i said i dont watch tv i didnt know... Have you heard about corona virus?? Yes i have

One policeman was pissed off, he told me we aren't 'on duty' now but have to be here... So unfortunately i wasnt able to go for a walk... Second policeman was calm and advised me to go home...
So now i am paranoid of going out... I will stay at home because police is the law... It's too risky to go out now...

Now the good side is that i have more time for computing/playing drums <- which i don't normally do cuz i rarely stay at home...
Still my family want me to go out and walk but i said i have had traumatic experience with policemen on friday not you... (If it's not necessary to leave homes then stay at homes)
Virus is serious now and i am willing to do whatever policemen tell me...

Btw. it's not allowed to go out and walk in the forests or anything...
Now with conspiracy theories i am not really into that, but it seems like police is not happy with what they have to do now...

Now it is time i start doing sit-ups/stretch :-)
I have seen no evidence where responsible people who can keep a safe distance and not socialize shouldn't be walking, or riding, or driving. Those are unnecessary idiotic measures of control freaks who feel safer themselves with people being locked up in jail, Entire societies locked inside their own personal prisons. They have authorities and they use them, on naive spineless people unwilling to confront abuse of authority. The same idiots who will give you a fine or arrest you from walking in the forest or a park, or a lake, or a beach, will accept a permit to go grocery shopping, or factory working, or grocery storage facility and work indoors with other people, let alone working in a hospital where in some places it has become virtually impossible to avoid infection, due to lack of adequate protective supplies.

On the other hand you have governments who have seen a little bit of improvement on their statistics and 99.9% of the population not yet infected are considering lifting bans and force people back to work and kids to school, no vaccine or drug acting against covid19 anywhere in sight. Only irresponsible journalists searching for a story that will benefit their career find some lab results with promising signs and publicize their preliminary result/summaries like if they were finally successful there would be availability for this substance in less than a year or two. This is going to be live ongoing story of illness and death for the next 2 years at least, unless the virus mutates to a non-dangerous form. The question is whether with the isolation of societies, urban centers, hard-hit hotspots, and urban/community isolation, whether the mutations are going to follow a single route or multiple variant routes, where in N.Italy you may have a mild flu mutation and in Brazil you may have a deadlier more aggressive virus that floats live in the air for kilometers at a time. Maybe N.Italy, Switzerland, Luxemburg, NYCity may be the last places with people alive some 10 years from now, the people that got really sick early and developed antibodies that protect them even from mutations of the virus.

Biowarfare is here and the mutation of the state into the fascist regime it has been anticipated it will turn into (in its final stage) is also here. Whether the war started from a lab or from the ecosystem having enough with our shit and destruction, we may never know, and politically it makes no difference after all. When a nuclear aircraft carrier with 3000 crew gets stranded for weeks unable to function, this war effect already claims a big target, like a military/af. base of 3000 just got blown up.

If we are going to be locked up and ready for war I might as well live in N.Korea, what's the difference. Has anyone heard of sick people there? In Tokyo people are still acting as nothing has happened, although doctors in hospitals are seeing a growing number of patients in serious condition.

Now imagine what the numbers actually are when 95% of those infected with symptoms, but mild, stay home confined and don't get tested, are not counted, and in case they die abruptly and never get to a hospital those deaths are not counted as covid victims.

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